Comments on: The Greens in Iran are a Movement, not a Coup http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/the-greens-are-a-movement-not-a-coup.html Thoughts on the Middle East, History and Religion Tue, 14 Feb 2012 00:17:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Hear, hear: Serious Iran analysis @ JuanCole.com | Hanif on Media http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/the-greens-are-a-movement-not-a-coup.html#comment-6375 Hear, hear: Serious Iran analysis @ JuanCole.com | Hanif on Media Sat, 19 Jun 2010 06:23:51 +0000 http://www.juancole.com/?p=7437#comment-6375 [...] “The Greens are a Movement, not a Coup,” says the erudite U. of Michigan professor, in a 2-minute read that places U.S.-Iran relations in crystal-clear perspective. His “Informed Comment” blog at juancole.com routinely illustrates why our traditional news media have lost their monopoly on the attention of people who want to be informed rather than entertained. [...] [...] “The Greens are a Movement, not a Coup,” says the erudite U. of Michigan professor, in a 2-minute read that places U.S.-Iran relations in crystal-clear perspective. His “Informed Comment” blog at juancole.com routinely illustrates why our traditional news media have lost their monopoly on the attention of people who want to be informed rather than entertained. [...]

]]> By: Weekly roundup « Iran in the World http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/the-greens-are-a-movement-not-a-coup.html#comment-6343 Weekly roundup « Iran in the World Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:05:45 +0000 http://www.juancole.com/?p=7437#comment-6343 [...] limitations and argues that the US should engage with the current regime in direct negotiations (Informed Comment). Flynt and Hillary Mann Leverett accuse Western journalists of overestimating the Green [...] [...] limitations and argues that the US should engage with the current regime in direct negotiations (Informed Comment). Flynt and Hillary Mann Leverett accuse Western journalists of overestimating the Green [...]

]]> By: The Greens in Iran are a Movement, not a Coup « Gracesmusings's Blog http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/the-greens-are-a-movement-not-a-coup.html#comment-6265 The Greens in Iran are a Movement, not a Coup « Gracesmusings's Blog Thu, 17 Jun 2010 01:18:18 +0000 http://www.juancole.com/?p=7437#comment-6265 [...] Greens in Iran are a Movement, not a Coup By gracesmusings The Greens in Iran are a Movement, not a Coup. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Forward the Revolution?"The anniversary [...] [...] Greens in Iran are a Movement, not a Coup By gracesmusings The Greens in Iran are a Movement, not a Coup. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Forward the Revolution?"The anniversary [...]

]]> By: Curt http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/the-greens-are-a-movement-not-a-coup.html#comment-6216 Curt Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:00:08 +0000 http://www.juancole.com/?p=7437#comment-6216 It is true that tactics that work in America may not work in Iran and vice versa. The Iranians are much smarter. Now is the time to build the networks of those that will take an Axe to the head of the beast if it does not reform. Everyone in the security services recently passed a key test. Now they face a new test. A test from forces that know their inner most thoughts and desires. The first task is to find me. I am surrounded by my enemies who are eager to see brought down. But they can not get to me becasue I am protected by a loyal squadron of bodyguards. Yet these bodyguards are not my followers. Alone I have charged in to the valley of death and have set the army of the enemy fleeing in all directions. Their retreat saved them from defeat on that day. But like the protagonist in the movie Sliding Doors their future fate is sealed. Only the course of their defeat is undecided. If a Major or Colonel in the Iranian Security Forces should accept me as their coworker I do not promise paradise at the end of their struggles. Those who struggle only for their personal salvation are not worthy of joining our struggle. If a Major or Colonel should join me in our struggle I do not promise power at the end of the struggle. Those who struggle only for power are not worthy of our struggle. If a Major or Colonel should join me in our struggle I do not even promise victory. Those who struggle when only when victory is possible are not worthy of our struggle. The only thing that I promise is a dangerous journey with many twists and turns that will finally lead to a new path, if you can get there. This new path is not the easyest path to follow, nor is it the hardest. It is the most scenic. Ask yourself if you are worthy of this struggle. Then pray for guidance to aquire your answer. Is it you that I am speaking to, or another in Columbia? You would think that my appeal would be made in Persian if it were true would yoú not? But did Mohammad make his appeal in Persian? The Koran commanded Muslims to Read! Tell me the names of Muslims that never learned to read? Things rarely work out the way that you were expecting. When I was returning from Mecca I thought that I would go home. But things did not work out that way. I spent me time lost wandering around Europe and America. Like a true Muslim I studied other religions WITH AN OPEN MIND and I became better for it. What are you capable of becoming? What are you capable of? It is true that tactics that work in America may not work in Iran and vice versa. The Iranians are much smarter. Now is the time to build the networks of those that will take an Axe to the head of the beast if it does not reform. Everyone in the security services recently passed a key test. Now they face a new test. A test from forces that know their inner most thoughts and desires. The first task is to find me. I am surrounded by my enemies who are eager to see brought down. But they can not get to me becasue I am protected by a loyal squadron of bodyguards. Yet these bodyguards are not my followers. Alone I have charged in to the valley of death and have set the army of the enemy fleeing in all directions. Their retreat saved them from defeat on that day. But like the protagonist in the movie Sliding Doors their future fate is sealed. Only the course of their defeat is undecided.
If a Major or Colonel in the Iranian Security Forces should accept me as their coworker I do not promise paradise at the end of their struggles. Those who struggle only for their personal salvation are not worthy of joining our struggle. If a Major or Colonel should join me in our struggle I do not promise power at the end of the struggle. Those who struggle only for power are not worthy of our struggle. If a Major or Colonel should join me in our struggle I do not even promise victory. Those who struggle when only when victory is possible are not worthy of our struggle. The only thing that I promise is a dangerous journey with many twists and turns that will finally lead to a new path, if you can get there. This new path is not the easyest path to follow, nor is it the hardest. It is the most scenic. Ask yourself if you are worthy of this struggle. Then pray for guidance to aquire your answer. Is it you that I am speaking to, or another in Columbia?
You would think that my appeal would be made in Persian if it were true would yoú not? But did Mohammad make his appeal in Persian? The Koran commanded Muslims to Read! Tell me the names of Muslims that never learned to read? Things rarely work out the way that you were expecting.
When I was returning from Mecca I thought that I would go home. But things did not work out that way. I spent me time lost wandering around Europe and America. Like a true Muslim I studied other religions WITH AN OPEN MIND and I became better for it. What are you capable of becoming? What are you capable of?

]]> By: piotr http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/the-greens-are-a-movement-not-a-coup.html#comment-6198 piotr Wed, 16 Jun 2010 00:40:52 +0000 http://www.juancole.com/?p=7437#comment-6198 About regimes based on brute strength and not so brute. If "stability" is the only goal, Egypt, North Korea etc. show that you can achieve high levels of stability by refining state repression to a fine art form. But those are rather stagnant states, and I guess Iranians, ruling circles included, have more lofty ambitions. For example, Iran is investing a lot in education, including engineering and computer science. The model of repression that Iranian revolution is using is still reliant on having an enthusiastic mass movement. Also, the division of power between spiritual, judicial, executive and legislative can provide some mechanism to rotate out the corrupt and incompetent, something that Egypt does not have. I may also wonder if sanctions can have benefits for economy by forcing some degree of import substitution and protection for domestic industries. It is very hard to maintain industrial employment in oil-rich countries. So I guess that the spiritual leaders of Iran have a dilemma. They obviously want something better than a moribund repressive state like SA or Egypt. They also are scared of the decline in piety that can result from a more modern society. (It is well documented that exposing human flesh, especially female, leads to shark attacks on humans. Did you see any shark attack movie with modestly segregated beaches?) I think that for octogenarian clerics this is a very grave consideration. About regimes based on brute strength and not so brute.

If “stability” is the only goal, Egypt, North Korea etc. show that you can achieve high levels of stability by refining state repression to a fine art form. But those are rather stagnant states, and I guess Iranians, ruling circles included, have more lofty ambitions.

For example, Iran is investing a lot in education, including engineering and computer science.

The model of repression that Iranian revolution is using is still reliant on having an enthusiastic mass movement. Also, the division of power between spiritual, judicial, executive and legislative can provide some mechanism to rotate out the corrupt and incompetent, something that Egypt does not have.

I may also wonder if sanctions can have benefits for economy by forcing some degree of import substitution and protection for domestic industries. It is very hard to maintain industrial employment in oil-rich countries.

So I guess that the spiritual leaders of Iran have a dilemma. They obviously want something better than a moribund repressive state like SA or Egypt. They also are scared of the decline in piety that can result from a more modern society. (It is well documented that exposing human flesh, especially female, leads to shark attacks on humans. Did you see any shark attack movie with modestly segregated beaches?) I think that for octogenarian clerics this is a very grave consideration.

]]> By: Curt http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/the-greens-are-a-movement-not-a-coup.html#comment-6185 Curt Tue, 15 Jun 2010 21:47:42 +0000 http://www.juancole.com/?p=7437#comment-6185 I am a person who neither abhors or relishes violence. The Iranian government makes if very difficult for me to say what tactics should be used to drive them from power. Violence is an effective means in attaining ones political goals but with very harsh side effects. I think that if I were an Iranian I would neither endorse or condemn others who at this point choose to fight the Iranian government with violent means. I myself though would stick with non violent means at least for the time being. The leaders of Iran are making a false claim that they are the legitimate leaders of that country. Such claims have led to civil wars over and over again in human history. For false leaders to take over the reins of power is an enraging event. I am still enraged by the assissination of President Kennedy. The US has not had a legitimate government since that time. Yet when we look at what makes people in Iran angry about thier government it is the same gripes that people all over the world have, even in Europe, with the exception of how women are treated. Although women might be treated differently in western culture, western culture certianly does not seem to be a very good model for the development of our daughters either. Furthermore if one adds up the suffering that women would endure if there were a civil war in Iran I would have to question whether or not it would be worth it. I would advise Iranian women to immigrate to Canada or Australia or even Turkey, or Azerbijan, or Armenia. These are countries that I think Iranians could immigrate to without large sums of money. Voting with your feet is sometimes the best vote that there is. When there are two men in Iran for every woman then perhaps the Iranian clerics might be pressured in to treating Iranian women with a little more respect. Iranian Muslims should hear me because Sp4 Manning is my spiritual son. That should count for something. Iranian Muslims should hear me because Major Hassan is my spiritual cousin. That should count for something too. Iranian Muslims should hear me because I place truth and justice above national identity. That should count the most of all. In honor of Russel Means Che Gueverra Bobby Seals Sgt. Karim Akbar So what are the chances that a member of the Iranian Security Forces would ever read what I have just written and come to the correct conclusion that I am the one that they have waited centuries for? One in a billion or one in a trillion perhaps? The only way that we can know for sure is to leave it up and test them. Yes I am playing a game. One in which everyone deserving wins. Crazy? Well, humor me. It will help to build my insanity defense. Do you think that it is a bad time to for me to make outrageous claims? My advisors think otherwise. They actually saw the movie Sliding Doors. I am a person who neither abhors or relishes violence. The Iranian government makes if very difficult for me to say what tactics should be used to drive them from power. Violence is an effective means in attaining ones political goals but with very harsh side effects. I think that if I were an Iranian I would neither endorse or condemn others who at this point choose to fight the Iranian government with violent means. I myself though would stick with non violent means at least for the time being.
The leaders of Iran are making a false claim that they are the legitimate leaders of that country. Such claims have led to civil wars over and over again in human history. For false leaders to take over the reins of power is an enraging event. I am still enraged by the assissination of President Kennedy. The US has not had a legitimate government since that time. Yet when we look at what makes people in Iran angry about thier government it is the same gripes that people all over the world have, even in Europe, with the exception of how women are treated.
Although women might be treated differently in western culture, western culture certianly does not seem to be a very good model for the development of our daughters either. Furthermore if one adds up the suffering that women would endure if there were a civil war in Iran I would have to question whether or not it would be worth it. I would advise Iranian women to immigrate to Canada or Australia or even Turkey, or Azerbijan, or Armenia. These are countries that I think Iranians could immigrate to without large sums of money. Voting with your feet is sometimes the best vote that there is. When there are two men in Iran for every woman then perhaps the Iranian clerics might be pressured in to treating Iranian women with a little more respect.
Iranian Muslims should hear me because Sp4 Manning is my spiritual son. That should count for something. Iranian Muslims should hear me because Major Hassan is my spiritual cousin. That should count for something too. Iranian Muslims should hear me because I place truth and justice above national identity. That should count the most of all.
In honor of
Russel Means
Che Gueverra
Bobby Seals
Sgt. Karim Akbar

So what are the chances that a member of the Iranian Security Forces would ever read what I have just written and come to the correct conclusion that I am the one that they have waited centuries for? One in a billion or one in a trillion perhaps?
The only way that we can know for sure is to leave it up and test them.
Yes I am playing a game. One in which everyone deserving wins.
Crazy? Well, humor me. It will help to build my insanity defense.
Do you think that it is a bad time to for me to make outrageous claims?
My advisors think otherwise. They actually saw the movie Sliding Doors.

]]> By: Curt http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/the-greens-are-a-movement-not-a-coup.html#comment-6150 Curt Tue, 15 Jun 2010 12:36:45 +0000 http://www.juancole.com/?p=7437#comment-6150 I wonder why no one answered my question of why it was so important for Khamenei and those that backed Khamenei not to allow Mosavi to become President? This question has maybe been asked and answered before. But maybe I missed it or maybe I just do not remember. One year after the events is a little review not in order. Here is another thing not to forget. Those non Iranians who are defending Iran's nuclear power program against US imperialist and zionist attacks are not defending Iran the government but Iran the people. Juan, I mention this especially for you becasue you have mentioned how much you dislike Ahmadinejad. The internal policies of the Iranian government may suck. Yet in the disputes between the US government and the Iranian government the US is 125% wrong and Iran is 110% right. I wonder why no one answered my question of why it was so important for Khamenei and those that backed Khamenei not to allow Mosavi to become President? This question has maybe been asked and answered before. But maybe I missed it or maybe I just do not remember. One year after the events is a little review not in order.

Here is another thing not to forget. Those non Iranians who are defending Iran’s nuclear power program against US imperialist and zionist attacks are not defending Iran the government but Iran the people. Juan, I mention this especially for you becasue you have mentioned how much you dislike Ahmadinejad.
The internal policies of the Iranian government may suck. Yet in the disputes between the US government and the Iranian government the US is 125% wrong and Iran is 110% right.

]]> By: Milla http://www.juancole.com/2010/06/the-greens-are-a-movement-not-a-coup.html#comment-6143 Milla Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:09:32 +0000 http://www.juancole.com/?p=7437#comment-6143 I really like your site but what´s so "informed" about this perticular comment and whats your sources? I would have said Pentagon & Debka-files since your conclusion seems to be the same. This take from Middle East Times is more thorough: <a href="http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LF16Ak01.html" rel="nofollow">Iran's Greens deserted By Ismael Hossein-zadeh </a> I really like your site but what´s so “informed” about this perticular comment and whats your sources?
I would have said Pentagon & Debka-files since your conclusion seems to be the same.

This take from Middle East Times is more thorough:

Iran’s Greens deserted
By Ismael Hossein-zadeh

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