It is worth to mention that during the first Intifada 84 Israelis were killed by Palestinians as well. This may render the term "non-violent" a bit inaccurate.
Craig,
Nice analysis, but you need to factor that the middle-eastern countries are as addicted to oils as the western world is. The only different is that the oil-producing countries are not addicted to the oil it self, they are addicted to to money it brings. And this addiction is much more difficult to cure.
Changing your transportation energy source from oil to electricity, hydrogen, 2nd gen biofuels, is much more easier that changing your entire economy ! Currently Saudia, UAE, Kuwait, Iraq are entirely dependent on oil for source for money. They will need to adjust to a totally new world and frankly from what I see in the middle east, those countries cannot handle any change.
My speculation is that once oil demand will dwindle, those countries will collapse - into the Arab "game of throne" winter.
Dear Ramzy,
They were hardly children throwing stones at the first Intefada. Teenagers and young men participated in the uprising, similar in age to me and fellow IDF soldiers. We were both pawns on the same chessboard.
Fact checking:
Israel had a major conflict with the Syrian army during 1982 to 1985, in which Israel have shut down at least 90 Syrian aircraft. the 1973 war (mentioned above) was not the last conflict.
Fact checking:
1. 75% of the complaints have been checked by the military police (not 25 cases as mentioned above).
2. in half of the complaints there there was either a sentence or plea bargain
3. Only in 25 cases, there was trial.
Israelis were serious about peace with Syria (Shepherdstown talk in 99), but Assad regime was not willing to give up the 500-meter strip of land.
Furthermore, due to the fact the Israel is occupying the Golan heights, not a single druze was killed in the Syrian civil war. This must be worth something, isn't it ?
Spyguy,
The original number of Jews in the article was 1.4, later it was corrected to 14.
I think I can argue about your claim "..much smarter Jewish people.. " that is ill-based, without any reference. Otherwise please provide with some evidence to it.
I would not be surprise to be learn that any country been attack by long range Iraqi scud missiles (suspected armed with either nuclear or chemical war head), after Saddam's declaration he will "burn down Israel" will have the right to protect itself. One way to protect is by preemptive streak - a strategy developed by the USA.
So the term "blackmailing" is not the correct one, simply putting - defensing your country.
The reference link to the assumption that the attack was part of a "Netanyahu is engaging in warmongering..." is not correct. This link only state that the Iranian general was killed because his cell phone was "on".
I would like to add that the majority of the newspaper and journalists in Israel, agreed that the army would not initiate/preform such a attack to satisfy any political ambitions by Bibi. Only one or two journalist have speculated about some kind of a hidden motive. Actually, most generals in the Israeli Defense Forces are very very cautious exercising power.
So it seems that the the major assumption that the attack was politically motivated is most likely wrong and should not be refer to as such.
Marshalldoc,
My answer will be short since I at work right now...
I have cited several references, let me go through them and show you that they are all irrelevant:
1. The study was conducted by a well respected universities (Yale , TAU) and in her criticism Nurit Peled (a radical left wing) tries to bend reality the facts into her polictical position. It is the same as giving Noam Homsky to analysi Carl Rob text - You know what will be the outcome.
2. The debat is about the narrative - again no evidence of racism .
... there is one theme in your post, you reiterate several times, which is wrong ... that I must respond to. In your post you proclaim with the highest certainty, that Israeli (disclosure - myself among them), are raised from birth to see the Arabs as primitive, Jews-hating, which their lives are disposable. I would not know were to start to refute this so preposterous and ridiculous claim, but I will try.
1. When in high school, for the final exams in history and literature, all students learn that in the 10th-14th centuries while Europe was deep into the dark ages, with European Jews suffering from Church-based provocative antisemitic feeling, the Jews in the Arab/Muslim region (from Spain to (today) Iraq) enjoyed from "Golden decades", The "Rambam", the poets of spains, and more. - No teaching to hate Arabs here !
2. Every school has the opportunity to select several ex-curriculum programs - such as recycling, enhanced science and more. One of the popular (which my kid's school had selected) was to visit neighboring school from Tira - mostly Muslim-Arab village and engage with confident building activities.
3. I can go on and on about how in the state (Federal) level programs and actions are made to enhance relationship between Jews and Arabs. But I fear your mind is so set, I will probably could not budge you from your position.
One correction: the name is Ital Brun not Utai.
two thoughs:
1. Not for the first time an arab leader is using deadly chemical weapons on his people. So would they think twice to use it on their enemies (AKA Israelis).
2. If Obamah will not act against Syria upon the use of chemical weapons as he said before, can we (the Israelis) be sure he is going to do everything necesarry to stop Iran from a neuclar bomb !
You are absolutely correct John. The Zionist movement has begun 10 years even before Hitler was born. Anti-Semitism, pogroms, persecutions, prejudice in eastern and Western Europe are all the reason why Zionism was established. What the holocaust had thought was that no nation will help us the Jews, even in the middle of the 20th century, when the worst genocide in history takes place.
The only logical and JUST solution was to RE-ESTABLISH our national home land and granting us the right to protect and govern ourselves. If the Jews are not allowed to return to their homeland after 2000 years of yearning, what other nations will have the right?
This is the new face of anti-Semitism – preventing the Jews the right to return to their home.
I would like to add two comments.
1. The title may be misleading, upon reading it one can suspect we (Israelis) are bombing in Gaza without a cause. While the situation was opposite - a fraction of the Hamas decided to instigate the situation by firing "tiny home made rockets" (which killed 6 Israelis in the last conflict) into Israel, with a clear knowledge Israel will streak back. BTW I would to see any of you guys standing next to one of them when it explode..
2. Many people believe, that one of the main reason Hamas came to power was NOT because of the Israeli siege, but because of the corruption in the PLO leadership.
Great idea, when Israelis will see this kind of Arab initiative it can tilt the scale and create a very positive atmosphere toward peace between Isr/Pls.
FYI in the last election the only party in the parliament which still did not recognize the two state solution holds only 12% of the votes. This means that 88% of the parties (and the israelis) support two states solution !!!
Bernard...I can assure you that I am supporting the two state solution as well, even though the border will cross the fields 5 miles from my home. So does agree more than 50% of Israelis.
The only problem is what will happen if the next day the Palestine PLO leadership will be over-thrown and an El-Qaeda or Hizaballa or Hamas government will take control.
The risks I am going to take are so huge, I must have good guaranties for that not to happen.
the argument "... the non-Jewish presence in that land has arguably been as or more significant than the Jewish-majority period." is misleading, since you can re-write it more accurately, for example by saying that in the last 3000 years Jews as a nation hold the land longer than any other nation.
More over you can always reverse this argument on other countries, such N. Or S. America. You can state the Indian of the Sioux held Dakota more years than the white people.
Just a comment about Yes Atid,
although the party is currently a "one man show" - headed by the charismatic Yair Lapid, some of its "DNA" is pure left wing - Yael German, Ofer Shelach, yaakov Peri are people deeply rooted in the left side in Israel politics.
So in context of political tendency - This party had a very clear vision - a two state solution.
In regards to point number 8, "...Hizbullah primarily deployed violence against Israeli troops occupying ..." So, I seems that 44 Israeli citizens died from unknown causes in the 2nd Lebanon war. Since Hizbullah did not shoot on every city in Israel rockets, Mortars and missiles, indiscriminately in order to kill as much as possible Israeli citizens
Let me open by saying that I am an Israeli, Living all of my life in Israel, raise by the same values as you probably was raised. I position myself as a left wing, liberal, peace lover (although served in the the army for 6 years as fully combatant officer), pro-democratic activist.
It was my dream (and many other like me in Israel) that some day, the countries around us will have the sense to move into a democratic government, since by our hypothesis: peace among people is stronger than the peace among nations.
When the dust from the Arab spring had settled, some countries had made the transition while others are still in the process. But the outcome is not exactly what I was waiting for. If anything I sense that the very fragile peace between our neighbors is in higher risk than ever before.
I still hope the egyptians, Tunisian, Lybian and Syrian will practice democracy while maintaining peace with us. BUT we feel that the extreme Islamic forces are on the rise. This is time for us to "speak softly, but carry a big stick". as one of your smart president said many years ago - very relevant for us today.
We can not afford ourselves to get it wrong - if we miscalculate only a single time (as we did in 1973 war) our existence will not be assured at all.
I agree with you about rise of the pro-democratice movement in the Arab world, but living in the middle east, I most also look without hesitation to the other force that rises...and we cannot ignore it, even when it does not suite our hypothesis.
I do hope the Arabs will finalize with the idea that we are her to stay. But they don't we are in a road to a very wide conflict..
The reaction in the "Arab street" is not against the film - it is only the match who light the fire. The resentment in the Arab world against western civilization and humanity view point, which it represents, is so huge that blaming the film is just looking the other way around.
You most face that there is a growing trend of extremist and bigotry in the muslim world to counter outside (Western) influence.
Blaming the director or the film or any other issue is just to put your head in the sand. There is a storm in the horizon, we are feeling it first breeze.
Even though I am not a Likud fan (put it in an understatement), I have to admit that Bibi, Peres and some of his ministers have taken huge steps towards sustainable future her in Israel (bigger than ever). To name a few:
1. Shimon Peres gives the Shai Agasi project huge PR.
2. One year ago the government has allocated 1.2 B$ for fuel substitutes (I work in a company who vastly sponsored by this fund).
3. The electrical company (a state owned) is force to increase the share of electricity it buys from sun-powered panels.
4. Lots of subsides to start-up compnaies and moving goverment-red tape to accelerate the implementation of new technologies.
More step are on the way.
And one more thing, in Israel it is the law to build on every house a solar water heating system, (not PV panel). So if you calculate the amount of energy this systems save, Israel is one of the leaders in sustainable energy.
And although we are only hold a small share in global warming, if other counties could adopt some of the idea we develop - we can make a huge impact
Well, that is a gamble, that they will keep some kind of an open channel. BUT in order to prevent nuclear holocaust, the two countries MUST have a direct and immediate connection, such as the red phone between the white house and the Kremlin. Since the duration of a nuclear strike is 10-15 minutes, back channels and indirect connections are totally useless.
The hypothesis (and the ten scenarios which followed it) is based on the assumption that Israel and Iran could establish a "MAD stand-off". But, considering the fact that the Iranian government is occupying itself with statements and actions declaring to remove the "The Zionist cancer" it is hardly likely we (Israel) could establish any formal connection..Even the idea of some kind of a "Red Phone" between the two leaders is highly unlikely - since not a single official Iranian will ever be seen or approach an Israeli official.
Since the possibility of creating a MAD stand-off is highly likely the second option (=Israel tries to destroy Iranian WMD and entering a conventional conflict) will be a better choice.
Well, the ratio of death is 1:10.
It is worth to mention that during the first Intifada 84 Israelis were killed by Palestinians as well. This may render the term "non-violent" a bit inaccurate.
Craig,
Nice analysis, but you need to factor that the middle-eastern countries are as addicted to oils as the western world is. The only different is that the oil-producing countries are not addicted to the oil it self, they are addicted to to money it brings. And this addiction is much more difficult to cure.
Changing your transportation energy source from oil to electricity, hydrogen, 2nd gen biofuels, is much more easier that changing your entire economy ! Currently Saudia, UAE, Kuwait, Iraq are entirely dependent on oil for source for money. They will need to adjust to a totally new world and frankly from what I see in the middle east, those countries cannot handle any change.
My speculation is that once oil demand will dwindle, those countries will collapse - into the Arab "game of throne" winter.
Dear Ramzy,
They were hardly children throwing stones at the first Intefada. Teenagers and young men participated in the uprising, similar in age to me and fellow IDF soldiers. We were both pawns on the same chessboard.
Fact checking:
Israel had a major conflict with the Syrian army during 1982 to 1985, in which Israel have shut down at least 90 Syrian aircraft. the 1973 war (mentioned above) was not the last conflict.
Fact checking:
1. 75% of the complaints have been checked by the military police (not 25 cases as mentioned above).
2. in half of the complaints there there was either a sentence or plea bargain
3. Only in 25 cases, there was trial.
the Link:
http://www.btselem.org/hebrew/publications/summaries/201605_occupations_fig_leaf
the table:
אחרי אפריל 2011 (לאחר שינוי במדיניות החקירות) עד אפריל 2011
24 3 3 10 1 4 3 טרם הוחלט אם לפתוח בחקירה
182 2 12 30 47 9 82 לא נפתחה חקירה
69 2 10 37 4 15 1 בחקירה
343 15 46 199 38 13 32 התיק נסגר
39 0 0 1 7 24 7 בטיפול הפרקליטות
25 0 2 11 4 2 6 הוגש כתב אישום
13 0 3 5 4 0 1 הועבר לדין משמעתי
44 9 2 7 17 1 8 הפנייה לא אותרה
739 31 78 300 122 68 140 סה"כ
Israelis were serious about peace with Syria (Shepherdstown talk in 99), but Assad regime was not willing to give up the 500-meter strip of land.
Furthermore, due to the fact the Israel is occupying the Golan heights, not a single druze was killed in the Syrian civil war. This must be worth something, isn't it ?
Spyguy,
The original number of Jews in the article was 1.4, later it was corrected to 14.
I think I can argue about your claim "..much smarter Jewish people.. " that is ill-based, without any reference. Otherwise please provide with some evidence to it.
Fact checking number #1
There are a bit more than 1.4 millions Jews in the world.
I would not be surprise to be learn that any country been attack by long range Iraqi scud missiles (suspected armed with either nuclear or chemical war head), after Saddam's declaration he will "burn down Israel" will have the right to protect itself. One way to protect is by preemptive streak - a strategy developed by the USA.
So the term "blackmailing" is not the correct one, simply putting - defensing your country.
Are you kidding me ?
The middle is is burning, and the biggest problem is an access tunnel to the grave ?
The reference link to the assumption that the attack was part of a "Netanyahu is engaging in warmongering..." is not correct. This link only state that the Iranian general was killed because his cell phone was "on".
I would like to add that the majority of the newspaper and journalists in Israel, agreed that the army would not initiate/preform such a attack to satisfy any political ambitions by Bibi. Only one or two journalist have speculated about some kind of a hidden motive. Actually, most generals in the Israeli Defense Forces are very very cautious exercising power.
So it seems that the the major assumption that the attack was politically motivated is most likely wrong and should not be refer to as such.
Marshalldoc,
My answer will be short since I at work right now...
I have cited several references, let me go through them and show you that they are all irrelevant:
1. The study was conducted by a well respected universities (Yale , TAU) and in her criticism Nurit Peled (a radical left wing) tries to bend reality the facts into her polictical position. It is the same as giving Noam Homsky to analysi Carl Rob text - You know what will be the outcome.
2. The debat is about the narrative - again no evidence of racism .
Christina,
... there is one theme in your post, you reiterate several times, which is wrong ... that I must respond to. In your post you proclaim with the highest certainty, that Israeli (disclosure - myself among them), are raised from birth to see the Arabs as primitive, Jews-hating, which their lives are disposable. I would not know were to start to refute this so preposterous and ridiculous claim, but I will try.
1. When in high school, for the final exams in history and literature, all students learn that in the 10th-14th centuries while Europe was deep into the dark ages, with European Jews suffering from Church-based provocative antisemitic feeling, the Jews in the Arab/Muslim region (from Spain to (today) Iraq) enjoyed from "Golden decades", The "Rambam", the poets of spains, and more. - No teaching to hate Arabs here !
2. Every school has the opportunity to select several ex-curriculum programs - such as recycling, enhanced science and more. One of the popular (which my kid's school had selected) was to visit neighboring school from Tira - mostly Muslim-Arab village and engage with confident building activities.
3. I can go on and on about how in the state (Federal) level programs and actions are made to enhance relationship between Jews and Arabs. But I fear your mind is so set, I will probably could not budge you from your position.
After more 100,000 deaths, maybe it is time to for the USA to depart from these kind of allies.
Well put ! I agree with every word J.C.
One correction: the name is Ital Brun not Utai.
two thoughs:
1. Not for the first time an arab leader is using deadly chemical weapons on his people. So would they think twice to use it on their enemies (AKA Israelis).
2. If Obamah will not act against Syria upon the use of chemical weapons as he said before, can we (the Israelis) be sure he is going to do everything necesarry to stop Iran from a neuclar bomb !
You are absolutely correct John. The Zionist movement has begun 10 years even before Hitler was born. Anti-Semitism, pogroms, persecutions, prejudice in eastern and Western Europe are all the reason why Zionism was established. What the holocaust had thought was that no nation will help us the Jews, even in the middle of the 20th century, when the worst genocide in history takes place.
The only logical and JUST solution was to RE-ESTABLISH our national home land and granting us the right to protect and govern ourselves. If the Jews are not allowed to return to their homeland after 2000 years of yearning, what other nations will have the right?
This is the new face of anti-Semitism – preventing the Jews the right to return to their home.
I would like to add two comments.
1. The title may be misleading, upon reading it one can suspect we (Israelis) are bombing in Gaza without a cause. While the situation was opposite - a fraction of the Hamas decided to instigate the situation by firing "tiny home made rockets" (which killed 6 Israelis in the last conflict) into Israel, with a clear knowledge Israel will streak back. BTW I would to see any of you guys standing next to one of them when it explode..
2. Many people believe, that one of the main reason Hamas came to power was NOT because of the Israeli siege, but because of the corruption in the PLO leadership.
Great idea, when Israelis will see this kind of Arab initiative it can tilt the scale and create a very positive atmosphere toward peace between Isr/Pls.
FYI in the last election the only party in the parliament which still did not recognize the two state solution holds only 12% of the votes. This means that 88% of the parties (and the israelis) support two states solution !!!
Bernard...I can assure you that I am supporting the two state solution as well, even though the border will cross the fields 5 miles from my home. So does agree more than 50% of Israelis.
The only problem is what will happen if the next day the Palestine PLO leadership will be over-thrown and an El-Qaeda or Hizaballa or Hamas government will take control.
The risks I am going to take are so huge, I must have good guaranties for that not to happen.
the argument "... the non-Jewish presence in that land has arguably been as or more significant than the Jewish-majority period." is misleading, since you can re-write it more accurately, for example by saying that in the last 3000 years Jews as a nation hold the land longer than any other nation.
More over you can always reverse this argument on other countries, such N. Or S. America. You can state the Indian of the Sioux held Dakota more years than the white people.
Just a comment about Yes Atid,
although the party is currently a "one man show" - headed by the charismatic Yair Lapid, some of its "DNA" is pure left wing - Yael German, Ofer Shelach, yaakov Peri are people deeply rooted in the left side in Israel politics.
So in context of political tendency - This party had a very clear vision - a two state solution.
In regards to point number 8, "...Hizbullah primarily deployed violence against Israeli troops occupying ..." So, I seems that 44 Israeli citizens died from unknown causes in the 2nd Lebanon war. Since Hizbullah did not shoot on every city in Israel rockets, Mortars and missiles, indiscriminately in order to kill as much as possible Israeli citizens
Let me open by saying that I am an Israeli, Living all of my life in Israel, raise by the same values as you probably was raised. I position myself as a left wing, liberal, peace lover (although served in the the army for 6 years as fully combatant officer), pro-democratic activist.
It was my dream (and many other like me in Israel) that some day, the countries around us will have the sense to move into a democratic government, since by our hypothesis: peace among people is stronger than the peace among nations.
When the dust from the Arab spring had settled, some countries had made the transition while others are still in the process. But the outcome is not exactly what I was waiting for. If anything I sense that the very fragile peace between our neighbors is in higher risk than ever before.
I still hope the egyptians, Tunisian, Lybian and Syrian will practice democracy while maintaining peace with us. BUT we feel that the extreme Islamic forces are on the rise. This is time for us to "speak softly, but carry a big stick". as one of your smart president said many years ago - very relevant for us today.
We can not afford ourselves to get it wrong - if we miscalculate only a single time (as we did in 1973 war) our existence will not be assured at all.
I agree with you about rise of the pro-democratice movement in the Arab world, but living in the middle east, I most also look without hesitation to the other force that rises...and we cannot ignore it, even when it does not suite our hypothesis.
I do hope the Arabs will finalize with the idea that we are her to stay. But they don't we are in a road to a very wide conflict..
The reaction in the "Arab street" is not against the film - it is only the match who light the fire. The resentment in the Arab world against western civilization and humanity view point, which it represents, is so huge that blaming the film is just looking the other way around.
You most face that there is a growing trend of extremist and bigotry in the muslim world to counter outside (Western) influence.
Blaming the director or the film or any other issue is just to put your head in the sand. There is a storm in the horizon, we are feeling it first breeze.
Wow, I could not understand a single sentence in your replay !
What are you talking about ?
Even though I am not a Likud fan (put it in an understatement), I have to admit that Bibi, Peres and some of his ministers have taken huge steps towards sustainable future her in Israel (bigger than ever). To name a few:
1. Shimon Peres gives the Shai Agasi project huge PR.
2. One year ago the government has allocated 1.2 B$ for fuel substitutes (I work in a company who vastly sponsored by this fund).
3. The electrical company (a state owned) is force to increase the share of electricity it buys from sun-powered panels.
4. Lots of subsides to start-up compnaies and moving goverment-red tape to accelerate the implementation of new technologies.
More step are on the way.
And one more thing, in Israel it is the law to build on every house a solar water heating system, (not PV panel). So if you calculate the amount of energy this systems save, Israel is one of the leaders in sustainable energy.
And although we are only hold a small share in global warming, if other counties could adopt some of the idea we develop - we can make a huge impact
Well, that is a gamble, that they will keep some kind of an open channel. BUT in order to prevent nuclear holocaust, the two countries MUST have a direct and immediate connection, such as the red phone between the white house and the Kremlin. Since the duration of a nuclear strike is 10-15 minutes, back channels and indirect connections are totally useless.
The hypothesis (and the ten scenarios which followed it) is based on the assumption that Israel and Iran could establish a "MAD stand-off". But, considering the fact that the Iranian government is occupying itself with statements and actions declaring to remove the "The Zionist cancer" it is hardly likely we (Israel) could establish any formal connection..Even the idea of some kind of a "Red Phone" between the two leaders is highly unlikely - since not a single official Iranian will ever be seen or approach an Israeli official.
Since the possibility of creating a MAD stand-off is highly likely the second option (=Israel tries to destroy Iranian WMD and entering a conventional conflict) will be a better choice.