sherm 04/25/2011 at 2:15 am Is there any reason to expect that the rebels will have blueprint for peacefully subduing political, tribal, and geographical rivalries that will bloom when Qaddafi et all are gone? "
People's seeking freedom do not have to submit blueprints or business plans for your approval You have no reason to expect any such trouble. And even if such a danger did exist, it is none of your business or anyone else's. It took centuries in Ireland pacify the effects of achieving a form of democracy in Britain. Libya deserves its own history.
Even if there were any evidence of serious AQ influence in the rebel movement, that it is probably a good thing, especially now that Jihad has been superceded by a valid form of activism.
Not to mention the level of training they would bring to the battlefield, if they existed.
You don't want to 'end the war', you want to throw the Libyan people to the wolves, and cause a much greater war, which will draw in both Israel and Iran.
There is no 'war', there is a mad homicidal dictator who threatens both the lives of thousands of Libyans and the stability of the region and the process of change which has begun. To let him off the hook - as you want to - would send a huge sigh of relief through every despotic Barbarian bunker from the Atlantic to the Himalayas.
And even your paranoia can only last as long as Gadaffi's supply of munitions, which is rapidly dwindling. Unless your conspiracy theories stretch to him being restocked by Washington.
You want to allow a barbarian dictator to kill his way to Immortality, I want to remove him, as do the Libyan people. You are the barbarian.
More common sense like this all round please. Those opposed to rescuing Misrata cannot use past (or future) failures to help as an excuse for not doing so now.
And since that seems their only argument, they would do better to just shut up and not make exhibitions of themselves.
This sounds like the Barbarians' Last Stand. The desperate howls of pain at the imminent decapitation of a sacred Godhead. And the excruciating psychological, historical and moral contortions of those determined to keep the monster Gadaffi in power.
It's a terrible sight to watch, but far less terrible than the scenes in Misrata, which the barbarians are blind to, being more concerned to defend their own crackpot bar-stool political theories and Cold War allegiances.
The global indifference to the crisis in Misrata is staggering. But there are questions, such as where is the satellite footage?
And there are reassuring answers. Such as the real formula of peace in Libya, which is mathematical and is a function of the ammunition remaining in Gadaffi's arsenal (X), its rate of use and destruction (Y), and the resolution of the forces of freedom (F). The answer would be the period of time (T) before Gadaffi has to go. The actual figures should be quite easy to find.
T=X/YxF. I think. Something quite dependable though.
I'm not a mathematician, but I know that unless Gadaffi is being restocked, his end gets nearer with every shot his troops fire.
You invoke Orwell to justify leaving freedom fighters to their deaths at the hands of a western-armed dictator? You obviously don't mean the George Orwell who wrote Homage to Catalonia and who was injured fighting for freedom, and who was pursued from Spain by Stalinists determined to crush the revolution, and who went on to denounce Britain and the west for abandoning Spain to fascism, laying the ground for the Second world War.
That Orwell would not have whined at bombing Gadaffi's tanks.
The nation state was a product of the steam engine and has been dead since the jet bomber. The change is nothing new. For generations power has been in the hands of monopolistic corporations, not elected politicians, and with it any dreams of 'national sovereignty'.
There has been a lull in UN 1973 strikes, but the overriding factor is the continued superiority of Gadaffi's weaponry. When they run out of ammunition, the spine of the beast will be broken. If he runs out of money to pay his mercenaries first, then that will be the critical factor.
Judging the Libyan people by their actions after the massacre of 17th February, I would not say they are a people willing to surrender to any kind of dictatorship in the future. After bitter struggles for freedom, people don't.
Any and every excuse is being wheeled out in throw the Libyan revolution to the dogs. Apparently, nothing can be done before all the arms trading stops and the Israel/Palestine problem sorted out. To do anything about rescuing Bengazi without this state of grace is to be 'hypocritical', apparently. Queue-jumping at least, very rude.
To demand that the world becomes perfect before the Libyan people can be helped is tanatamount to signing their death warrants. Those trying to intellectualise Gadaffi away are indulging their taste for armchair fantasy political games at the expense of real people's lives.
"Libya will need foreign army boots on the ground or is destined to fester is civil war for years" So Gadaffi's arsenals are infinite, you're saying. But just imagining that such a thing is unlikely, who will rearm him?
The truth is that every shot his troops fire brings his inevitable end that much closer. And if every time he uses his heavy weapons, they are destroyed, he will learn not to use them. Any allied heat-seeking technology will find an artillery muzzle flash.
It is ridiculous and cowardly NOT to compare and contrast the Libyan revolution with the betrayal of Spain, and consider the demands that were made for intervention at the time, and how the revolution was crushed, and the disastrous consequences of inaction for millions in the following ten years.
It is absurd and appalling and blind to allow self-indulgent petty legalistic historicism to distract from the desperate plight of the people of Misratah.
At the trial that would send him to prison for 27 years, Nelson Mandela explained:
"it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle… the government had left us no other choice."
Now that the Libyan people face the same dilemma, they are right to accept aid from anyone. Just as Mandela was right to accept aid from Gadaffi with which to fight Apartheid.
One key point is being routinely ignored, which makes all the academic speculation irrelevant and obstructive. Namely, the demonstrated, unquenchable will of the Libyan people to control their own future. They have shown no signs of compromising the sacrifices of their dead by surrendering to any external power once Gadaffi has gone, whether corporate or Divine.
Peter. The dangers of a renewed Gadaffi are indeed far greater than the alleged dangers of destroying the arsenal we sold him., by all "necessary measures".
If Libya does fall back into Gadaffi's hands, as would happen if the pacifists have their way, Egypt and Tunisia can kiss their embryonic democracies goodbye. They will be too busy dealing with the madman on their border, who will then believe he is immortal and omnipotent, and will do everything he can to get as many nuclear weapons as possible. 'Wot about Israel?!' Why don't we attack them?!' Because they have nukes, that's why.
For those who want to know the 'obective', the 'Endgame', it is to stop Gadaffi becoming a nuclear warlord.
I hate you so much for beating me to the Churchill point. I have been plugging the Spanish Civil War angle myself. There are a thousand other valid historical illustrations of how the pacifist left are getting it wrong. But very few historical arguments against this intervention, since the entire map of power has altered. never before has a revolution happened before the massed eyes of the population. And never before has it been able to express its opinions instantly and without interference. And never before has a revolutionary people had such an armoury of information tools and such a degree of classic political consciousness. Progressive thought should take heart from all the evidence that the Marxist tipping point is being reached, while Consumerism is obviously collapsing under its own weight. But the soft centre seems to be determined to fight the battles of the past all over again. They seem entrenched, and display all the reflexes of the shell-shocked.
sherm 04/25/2011 at 2:15 am
Is there any reason to expect that the rebels will have blueprint for peacefully subduing political, tribal, and geographical rivalries that will bloom when Qaddafi et all are gone? "
People's seeking freedom do not have to submit blueprints or business plans for your approval You have no reason to expect any such trouble. And even if such a danger did exist, it is none of your business or anyone else's. It took centuries in Ireland pacify the effects of achieving a form of democracy in Britain. Libya deserves its own history.
More evidence that Gadaffi's machine is grinding to a halt. http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-27
There will be justice.
Even if there were any evidence of serious AQ influence in the rebel movement, that it is probably a good thing, especially now that Jihad has been superceded by a valid form of activism.
Not to mention the level of training they would bring to the battlefield, if they existed.
The dear holy old US constitution.
Goes to prove that pre-industrial utopias (especially) don't work in an industrial age.
You don't want to 'end the war', you want to throw the Libyan people to the wolves, and cause a much greater war, which will draw in both Israel and Iran.
There is no 'war', there is a mad homicidal dictator who threatens both the lives of thousands of Libyans and the stability of the region and the process of change which has begun. To let him off the hook - as you want to - would send a huge sigh of relief through every despotic Barbarian bunker from the Atlantic to the Himalayas.
And even your paranoia can only last as long as Gadaffi's supply of munitions, which is rapidly dwindling. Unless your conspiracy theories stretch to him being restocked by Washington.
You want to allow a barbarian dictator to kill his way to Immortality, I want to remove him, as do the Libyan people. You are the barbarian.
More common sense like this all round please. Those opposed to rescuing Misrata cannot use past (or future) failures to help as an excuse for not doing so now.
And since that seems their only argument, they would do better to just shut up and not make exhibitions of themselves.
This sounds like the Barbarians' Last Stand. The desperate howls of pain at the imminent decapitation of a sacred Godhead. And the excruciating psychological, historical and moral contortions of those determined to keep the monster Gadaffi in power.
It's a terrible sight to watch, but far less terrible than the scenes in Misrata, which the barbarians are blind to, being more concerned to defend their own crackpot bar-stool political theories and Cold War allegiances.
The global indifference to the crisis in Misrata is staggering. But there are questions, such as where is the satellite footage?
And there are reassuring answers. Such as the real formula of peace in Libya, which is mathematical and is a function of the ammunition remaining in Gadaffi's arsenal (X), its rate of use and destruction (Y), and the resolution of the forces of freedom (F). The answer would be the period of time (T) before Gadaffi has to go. The actual figures should be quite easy to find.
T=X/YxF. I think. Something quite dependable though.
I'm not a mathematician, but I know that unless Gadaffi is being restocked, his end gets nearer with every shot his troops fire.
Name something in the last 3 months which wasn't amazing.
You invoke Orwell to justify leaving freedom fighters to their deaths at the hands of a western-armed dictator? You obviously don't mean the George Orwell who wrote Homage to Catalonia and who was injured fighting for freedom, and who was pursued from Spain by Stalinists determined to crush the revolution, and who went on to denounce Britain and the west for abandoning Spain to fascism, laying the ground for the Second world War.
That Orwell would not have whined at bombing Gadaffi's tanks.
The nation state was a product of the steam engine and has been dead since the jet bomber. The change is nothing new. For generations power has been in the hands of monopolistic corporations, not elected politicians, and with it any dreams of 'national sovereignty'.
There has been a lull in UN 1973 strikes, but the overriding factor is the continued superiority of Gadaffi's weaponry. When they run out of ammunition, the spine of the beast will be broken. If he runs out of money to pay his mercenaries first, then that will be the critical factor.
Judging the Libyan people by their actions after the massacre of 17th February, I would not say they are a people willing to surrender to any kind of dictatorship in the future. After bitter struggles for freedom, people don't.
Any and every excuse is being wheeled out in throw the Libyan revolution to the dogs. Apparently, nothing can be done before all the arms trading stops and the Israel/Palestine problem sorted out. To do anything about rescuing Bengazi without this state of grace is to be 'hypocritical', apparently. Queue-jumping at least, very rude.
To demand that the world becomes perfect before the Libyan people can be helped is tanatamount to signing their death warrants. Those trying to intellectualise Gadaffi away are indulging their taste for armchair fantasy political games at the expense of real people's lives.
"Libya will need foreign army boots on the ground or is destined to fester is civil war for years" So Gadaffi's arsenals are infinite, you're saying. But just imagining that such a thing is unlikely, who will rearm him?
The truth is that every shot his troops fire brings his inevitable end that much closer. And if every time he uses his heavy weapons, they are destroyed, he will learn not to use them. Any allied heat-seeking technology will find an artillery muzzle flash.
It is ridiculous and cowardly NOT to compare and contrast the Libyan revolution with the betrayal of Spain, and consider the demands that were made for intervention at the time, and how the revolution was crushed, and the disastrous consequences of inaction for millions in the following ten years.
It is absurd and appalling and blind to allow self-indulgent petty legalistic historicism to distract from the desperate plight of the people of Misratah.
At the trial that would send him to prison for 27 years, Nelson Mandela explained:
"it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle… the government had left us no other choice."
Now that the Libyan people face the same dilemma, they are right to accept aid from anyone. Just as Mandela was right to accept aid from Gadaffi with which to fight Apartheid.
One key point is being routinely ignored, which makes all the academic speculation irrelevant and obstructive. Namely, the demonstrated, unquenchable will of the Libyan people to control their own future. They have shown no signs of compromising the sacrifices of their dead by surrendering to any external power once Gadaffi has gone, whether corporate or Divine.
Peter. The dangers of a renewed Gadaffi are indeed far greater than the alleged dangers of destroying the arsenal we sold him., by all "necessary measures".
If Libya does fall back into Gadaffi's hands, as would happen if the pacifists have their way, Egypt and Tunisia can kiss their embryonic democracies goodbye. They will be too busy dealing with the madman on their border, who will then believe he is immortal and omnipotent, and will do everything he can to get as many nuclear weapons as possible. 'Wot about Israel?!' Why don't we attack them?!' Because they have nukes, that's why.
For those who want to know the 'obective', the 'Endgame', it is to stop Gadaffi becoming a nuclear warlord.
That's the day after mass slaughter of unarmed peaceful protestors by Gadaffi thugs using heavy weaponry.
That's totally understandable.
I hate you so much for beating me to the Churchill point. I have been plugging the Spanish Civil War angle myself. There are a thousand other valid historical illustrations of how the pacifist left are getting it wrong. But very few historical arguments against this intervention, since the entire map of power has altered. never before has a revolution happened before the massed eyes of the population. And never before has it been able to express its opinions instantly and without interference. And never before has a revolutionary people had such an armoury of information tools and such a degree of classic political consciousness. Progressive thought should take heart from all the evidence that the Marxist tipping point is being reached, while Consumerism is obviously collapsing under its own weight. But the soft centre seems to be determined to fight the battles of the past all over again. They seem entrenched, and display all the reflexes of the shell-shocked.