Joe: there is no unified rebel political organization. You can have anti-West/US entities in the coalition. That doesn't mean that in the post war mixup, those elements who do the West's bidding won't dominate. Just you watch, buddy. You completely underestimate how deep we have our greedy fingers in that multi-layered pie.
Super 390: if it were only that simple. You forget that having our foot on the production throttle, even third hand behind the scenes, puts China in a more vulnerable strategic position. If war comes with China, and given what you say about them owning us, our econ situation and the way bankers think about money vs. human life, it's a lot easier to cut them off by having a puppet turn off the spigot than bombing a whole 'nother nations' facilities and tankers, no? We're gearing up for a major war, dude. ANd keeping China out of it while we take down Iran and Syria, and maybe Pakistan, is top priority.
Joe, Pt. II: I'm not following you. What I can't buy for a heartbeat is the concept that the flinty hearted fucks that run our military industrial banking complex, who only understand fear, raw power and money, would make any investment of time/money/military for any interests but their own. Just won't believe it and, I gotta say, given this last century or so, I gotta wonder about the people who do.
But, who really knows the motivations of anyone or anything? I just judge actions. And dropping bombs and missiles is not the action of a moral person. Sorry, just isn't.
"China is Libya’s biggest oil customer in Asia and probably would like to make oil investments in the new Libya. Likely, however, it will be frozen out in favor of countries that more warmly supported the Benghazi revolutionaries."
Yeah, but oil played no part in the West's decision to replace the Libyan regime. Uh huh. Har dee har har. That's rich.
"China's largest oil and gas producer has shut down six major projects in war-torn Libya, Syria and other restive nations because of political instability, state media said Tuesday.
The decision came as Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi's regime appeared close to collapse after rebels took over the capital Tripoli, and as other countries in the Middle East and Africa experienced bouts of unrest."
None of those people who got buried or burned or blasted to death died to make things freer in Libya. They died so Libyan sweet crude keeps flowing north and west, rather than east. Might they end up freer as a happenstance? Who knows. War is never a solution, Dr. Cole. It is the admission that we have stopped looking for a solution.
Oh puhlease. Maybe ya'll don't remember April/May '03 and how we heard all of this same stuff about Iraq. Or earlier about Afghanistan. I would have thought those burned in earlier explosions of triumphalism would be more circumspect here, or at least more prudent. Was it a surprise that Qaddafi was beaten by a coalition of industrial powers and their high tech, capital intensive militaries? The only surprise was that Qaddafi managed to hang on as long as he did.
The NATO powers did not bomb the bejesus out of Libya to do Libyans any favors, any more than the French and Americans invaded Haiti to protect Haitians. While Libya was indeed a contributor to the world's petroleum market, there is no doubt that different people will now determine its policies on pricing, and access, and distribution of profits. Who are those people? That remains to be seen. But somehow, I suspect they will be vetted and limited to those friendly to the Western Powers that install them, and that will be the backbone against any pushback by indigenous elements (all of whom will now be doomed to identification as "old regime supporters").
In any case, whatever has been wrought has been wrought through the imposition of mass destruction by powerful men directed by their own interests. If anything good and lasting comes of this, it will be a first.
But in any case, hooting around on this day seems at best premature and at worst self serving.
I'd say Obama is just making a re-alignment of forces, now that he has to rush thousands of new troops to different theaters-- Syria (staging in Turkey); Yemen (off shore probably); and Libya (off shore; in Egypt). The "metrics" for "success" in Afghanistan are so bogus that they can take the same set of stats and spin it as progress or regression, so what does it matter how many troops he has in Afghanistan? That's not the gravamen of the conflict anymore anyway-- it's in Pakistan, and now on these other peripheral areas as the entire security web set up by the banks becomes unraveled. So what withdrawal? From one imperial trouble spot to another? Har dee har har har.
Greenwald's right. To say that a theoretical objective is a good is one thing. To actually obtain it by allowing men that we know have no principles and an anti-humane overriding agenda is entirely another. I deem this the Hitchen's Fallacy.
Sorry to disagree with you on the intervention issue. I believe that the distance between a: it's a good idea for humanitarian purposes to unleash industrial methods of mass destruction on a country that has/can not attacked us
to
b: handing the operation over to a bunch of bloodthirsty, greed besotted political leaders who plainly have their own agendas that will overshadow and obliterate the original purpose.
I mean, we all have a vision of a better world that we might realize if we just kill all the right people. Except, it never works out that way, does it?
Professor Cole! Citing a $30 billion arms sale to India as a good thing about Obama's trip?!!!! A volatile region, with India and Pakistan potential belligerents, with India seemingly now opening up to a strategic alliance with China-- just seems to me that if that's all we have to sell, he's better off staying home.
Not trying to stick up for anti-Semitism here (though that won't stop anyone from accusing me of it, as Prof. Cole can testify to), but I am of the Norman Finklestein school on anti-Semitism in America-- American Jews are, and deservedly so, a remarkably successful ethnic group in this country. They have contributes so much to our nation and I believe they are well recognized for it. If you haven't seen it, there's a most interesting film out there made recently by an Israeli filmmaker, called (in Hebrew) "Defamation"-- and explores this very issue. Most instructive is what the ADL, which catalogues, essentially, every broken window or wayward comment related to American Jews, finds to be such a disturbing explosion in hate crimes against Jews.
Frankly, when it comes to Jews, Italians, Blacks or what have you, I'm against any kind of "us" vs. "them" starting points for discussion. It's all us, man. "Them" is a darkside Jedi mind trick.
With all due respect, Prof. Cole, I'd say Obama's call for green energy programs has about as much relative heft to JFK's call for a moon mission as Ralph Kramden's "to the moon" promises did. He says it because that's what he's told people want to hear. He's been in office for well over a year and he can't even get "cap and trade" off the ground, even after having it mostly designed by Big Oil and the other entrenched interests. But he's going to get this even started? As Ralph would say, "Har dee har har har."
Joe: there is no unified rebel political organization. You can have anti-West/US entities in the coalition. That doesn't mean that in the post war mixup, those elements who do the West's bidding won't dominate. Just you watch, buddy. You completely underestimate how deep we have our greedy fingers in that multi-layered pie.
Super 390: if it were only that simple. You forget that having our foot on the production throttle, even third hand behind the scenes, puts China in a more vulnerable strategic position. If war comes with China, and given what you say about them owning us, our econ situation and the way bankers think about money vs. human life, it's a lot easier to cut them off by having a puppet turn off the spigot than bombing a whole 'nother nations' facilities and tankers, no? We're gearing up for a major war, dude. ANd keeping China out of it while we take down Iran and Syria, and maybe Pakistan, is top priority.
Joe, Pt. II: I'm not following you. What I can't buy for a heartbeat is the concept that the flinty hearted fucks that run our military industrial banking complex, who only understand fear, raw power and money, would make any investment of time/money/military for any interests but their own. Just won't believe it and, I gotta say, given this last century or so, I gotta wonder about the people who do.
But, who really knows the motivations of anyone or anything? I just judge actions. And dropping bombs and missiles is not the action of a moral person. Sorry, just isn't.
"China is Libya’s biggest oil customer in Asia and probably would like to make oil investments in the new Libya. Likely, however, it will be frozen out in favor of countries that more warmly supported the Benghazi revolutionaries."
Yeah, but oil played no part in the West's decision to replace the Libyan regime. Uh huh. Har dee har har. That's rich.
BTW:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/08/23/chinese-oil-giant-ends-ops-in-libya-syria-report/
"China's largest oil and gas producer has shut down six major projects in war-torn Libya, Syria and other restive nations because of political instability, state media said Tuesday.
The decision came as Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi's regime appeared close to collapse after rebels took over the capital Tripoli, and as other countries in the Middle East and Africa experienced bouts of unrest."
None of those people who got buried or burned or blasted to death died to make things freer in Libya. They died so Libyan sweet crude keeps flowing north and west, rather than east. Might they end up freer as a happenstance? Who knows. War is never a solution, Dr. Cole. It is the admission that we have stopped looking for a solution.
Oh puhlease. Maybe ya'll don't remember April/May '03 and how we heard all of this same stuff about Iraq. Or earlier about Afghanistan. I would have thought those burned in earlier explosions of triumphalism would be more circumspect here, or at least more prudent. Was it a surprise that Qaddafi was beaten by a coalition of industrial powers and their high tech, capital intensive militaries? The only surprise was that Qaddafi managed to hang on as long as he did.
The NATO powers did not bomb the bejesus out of Libya to do Libyans any favors, any more than the French and Americans invaded Haiti to protect Haitians. While Libya was indeed a contributor to the world's petroleum market, there is no doubt that different people will now determine its policies on pricing, and access, and distribution of profits. Who are those people? That remains to be seen. But somehow, I suspect they will be vetted and limited to those friendly to the Western Powers that install them, and that will be the backbone against any pushback by indigenous elements (all of whom will now be doomed to identification as "old regime supporters").
In any case, whatever has been wrought has been wrought through the imposition of mass destruction by powerful men directed by their own interests. If anything good and lasting comes of this, it will be a first.
But in any case, hooting around on this day seems at best premature and at worst self serving.
I'd say Obama is just making a re-alignment of forces, now that he has to rush thousands of new troops to different theaters-- Syria (staging in Turkey); Yemen (off shore probably); and Libya (off shore; in Egypt). The "metrics" for "success" in Afghanistan are so bogus that they can take the same set of stats and spin it as progress or regression, so what does it matter how many troops he has in Afghanistan? That's not the gravamen of the conflict anymore anyway-- it's in Pakistan, and now on these other peripheral areas as the entire security web set up by the banks becomes unraveled. So what withdrawal? From one imperial trouble spot to another? Har dee har har har.
Hah. If the pig squealed, you must have stuck it in the right spot. This is a badge of honor.
See you in the gulag someday!
cheers
dood
Greenwald's right. To say that a theoretical objective is a good is one thing. To actually obtain it by allowing men that we know have no principles and an anti-humane overriding agenda is entirely another. I deem this the Hitchen's Fallacy.
Peace!
Dear Prof. Cole:
Sorry to disagree with you on the intervention issue. I believe that the distance between a: it's a good idea for humanitarian purposes to unleash industrial methods of mass destruction on a country that has/can not attacked us
to
b: handing the operation over to a bunch of bloodthirsty, greed besotted political leaders who plainly have their own agendas that will overshadow and obliterate the original purpose.
I mean, we all have a vision of a better world that we might realize if we just kill all the right people. Except, it never works out that way, does it?
Peace brother!
Mike Castellaneta
BTW, here's an article today in Counterpunch:
http://www.counterpunch.org/prashad11052010.html
The other motivation for the trip being to carry Monsanto's water in their war against third world farmers.
Professor Cole! Citing a $30 billion arms sale to India as a good thing about Obama's trip?!!!! A volatile region, with India and Pakistan potential belligerents, with India seemingly now opening up to a strategic alliance with China-- just seems to me that if that's all we have to sell, he's better off staying home.
Not trying to stick up for anti-Semitism here (though that won't stop anyone from accusing me of it, as Prof. Cole can testify to), but I am of the Norman Finklestein school on anti-Semitism in America-- American Jews are, and deservedly so, a remarkably successful ethnic group in this country. They have contributes so much to our nation and I believe they are well recognized for it. If you haven't seen it, there's a most interesting film out there made recently by an Israeli filmmaker, called (in Hebrew) "Defamation"-- and explores this very issue. Most instructive is what the ADL, which catalogues, essentially, every broken window or wayward comment related to American Jews, finds to be such a disturbing explosion in hate crimes against Jews.
Frankly, when it comes to Jews, Italians, Blacks or what have you, I'm against any kind of "us" vs. "them" starting points for discussion. It's all us, man. "Them" is a darkside Jedi mind trick.
With all due respect, Prof. Cole, I'd say Obama's call for green energy programs has about as much relative heft to JFK's call for a moon mission as Ralph Kramden's "to the moon" promises did. He says it because that's what he's told people want to hear. He's been in office for well over a year and he can't even get "cap and trade" off the ground, even after having it mostly designed by Big Oil and the other entrenched interests. But he's going to get this even started? As Ralph would say, "Har dee har har har."