1. Foreign troops are on the ground right now against gov't troops. Special forces from several NATO countries are helping the rebels. In a more open way, several NATO armies are also sending military advisers to help the rebels. And new arms, finances and equipment are suddenly appearing in rebel hands by the day.
2. Drones are not called in to 'prevent attacks on civilians'. They are used to mope the way for the rebels to advance against defensive gov't forces. The vice-chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff acknowledges that: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/20114227457163162.html
The drones will be used to attack gov't troops traveling in civilian vehicles and 'to be able to get better visibility on targets that have started to dig themselves into defensive positions'. In my view, attacking defensive positions is not a way to prevent attacks on civilians. By definition, defending is the opposite of attacking. One more action that puts us far away from the original UN resolution.
Btw. Libyan gov't has asked NATO to put a date for a ceasefire (what UN resolution call for). Why can't we (NATO) say something like 'by April 25th all military operations of both sides must stop and upon verification of this ceasefire we will inmediately stop bombing' ??? Otherwise it seems that we are just seeking regime-change by supporting one side in a civil war.
Mr Tharouna. If tribalism is not important in Libya, how is that Qadaffi enjoys wide support in southern Libya and in many areas of the centre and western Libya? Rebel support is strong in areas around Benghazi and the berber mountains, but it is lacking in areas like Sirte or Sabha where most civilian population supports Qadaffi and is feraful of the rebels.
Latinamerican revolutionary movements had true popular support and they would have liberated all countries between Mexico and Argentina in a couple of months if they had just enjoyed a fraction of the military support enjoyed by these heroic libyan "revolutionaries". The most powerful armies on earth are providing them with air superiority, close air support, logistical bombing, special forces and military experts, but alas they don't even manage to take a tiny town. If they had wide popular support they will be unstoppable by now with all that NATO warmachine working for them.
The rebel occupation of Ajdabiya some weeks ago was only possible thanks to several days of NATO bombing on defensive governement troops. After Ajdabiya fall, the rebels continued their advance toward Sirte, occupying towns loyal to Qadafi like Ras Lanuf and Bin Jawad, thanks to heavy NATO bombing of governement troops. Near Sirte, rebels where pushed back by army and civilians loyals to Qadaffi when the Western bombings were reduced due to bad weather. This is taking sides in a civil war.
You support the rebels, ok, but I think you shouldn't hide the evidence: we are taking sides in a civil war. We are bombing static troops, defensive positions, supply convoys, we are giving close air support to rebel troops, trining them, come on. We are sided with the rebels who fight under the monarchy flag and are headed by two men: former Ministry of Interior who for yeras leaded Qaddafi repressive police until he changed sides five weeks ago, and a CIA operative flown from Virginia to Benghazi.
''there is certainly no question that NATO’s intervention in Libya is authorized by UN Security Council resolution 1973''
Really? UN resolution calls for a "ban on flights" and to "protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack". Just that.
Thus, according to the UN you can shot down flying aircraft and you can attack troops directly attacking populated areas, i.e., Governement troops attacking Misrata or Rebel troops attacking Brega, but I do not think that the attacks against defending governement units are in accordance with UN resolution, or the attacks against governement convoys moving between governement-held cities, or giving air cover to rebel troops "attacking populated areas" defended by governement troops and pro-governement civilians.
This is a civil war with civilian support for both sides. One side is headed by an excentric dictator. The other one is headed by a former CIA operative living in Virginia and a guy who 5 weeks ago was the head of Qaddafi's repressive system (Interior Ministry). What a 'revolution'!
I think it is crazy to call for a trial against somebody for burning a book. More so a book about esoteric things, be it the Bible, the Koran or the Agatean holy book of gnomes. We can not surrender reason to superstition.
That said, I think the afghan riots are motivated by occupation, constant humiliations by foreign invaders, kill-teams, constant carnages by US and NATO bombs and so on. These are not the first nor will be the last riots in Afghanistan against foreign occupation. I don't know if the koran burning in Florida has been an extra factor this time, but in any case it is the less important aspect of the whole affair, and the one we should be less concerned with. It is not criminal to burn a book, but it is criminal to militarily occupy other people's land and to kill and humilliate local residents.
Why the counterattack against rebel positions in the east contravene the UN resolution while the rebel attacks do not? Armed rebels, militiamen, guerrillas, have never been considered civilians. In all wars they have always been fighters and proud to be. So stop claiming that bombing a side in a battleground is aimed at protecting 'civilians'.
I say again, what if the civilian support enjoyed by the rebels is not so widespread as Obama and Sarkozy claim? What if we are not protecting 'civilians' but just helping an armed side in conflict to overpower the other side, and by doing so we are supporting the repression of thousands of civilians opposed to Eastern Rebels?
From the other side of the atlantic it seems to me that the main difference between Republicans and Democrats presidents is that the later lies better and more elegantly. It's the same in the US than in Spain I think. A governement that calls himself 'left' and it is actually doing the dirty work for the 'right': cuts on pensions, cuts on working rights, cuts on education and health, and wars on third world countries.
The war on Libya has NATO support?: Of course.
Has it UN support?: I think not. The UN-resolution speaks about no-fly zone and "stopping threats to populated centres". The no-fly zone was implemented long ago and Qaddafi troops are not threatening cities in Tripoli, nor in Sirt, nor in Ajdabiya or any other eastern city, so what is the point bombing DEFENSIVE pro-governement positions? what is the point helping rebels to "threaten population centres". Regime change not suppported by UN resolution.
Has it Arab League support?: Not. They supported the no-fly zone but not this interfering in a civil war. The Secretary General of the Arab League said it clearly: this is not what they voted for.
African Union: someone has asked them? Yes, and they said NO, so they are totally ignored now. You know, Libya is an African country and I think the opinion of the major African organization should matter. We support them when they do the dirty work occupying Somalia but now we despise them.
News: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/03/201132994454514581.html Today, the rebel advance has been halted and reversed. They have lost Bin Jawad in a governement counter-attack. Are we going to piss again on the UN-resolution to make a new round of soldier-killing from the air in order to flatten the terrain ahead of the rebels? Btw, Yugoslavians and Romanians did not need a foreign power to destroy their armies in order to overturn their own governements (the yugoslavian army remained fairly intact after the NATO campaign to 'liberate' Kosovo).
The Lybian is the first liberation movement that need constant pet-care by the greatest military powers on Earth in order to advance against an isolated, tribal-fractured governement whose army is perhaps the weakest in the Arab world.
Again, this make me wonder about the true popular support enjoyed by the rebels outside Benghazi.
The erasing of Qadaffi air force and the wipping out of advancing tank columns was not enough for the rebels to gain ground. Thus, NATO had to forget UN resolution and destroy defensive Qadaffi positions, infantry, artillery, armor. With soldiers and tanks destroyed from the air the rebels could easily use their own tanks and soldiers to take the vacant terrain. I wonder if the UN resolution said something about helping rebels to attack cities. The NATO move seems to be fully against the UN resolution but who cares.
Overall, Western powers are winning again in the Middle East. In January and February it seemed that the whole region was set to sail free. However, right now we see how the Egyptian and Tunisian revolutions have stalled and Israel and USA have been able to minimize damages there. In Lybia we are working for regime change with awesome impunity, kicking out an unpredictable regime to put in its place a pro-western alliance of eastern tribes. In Bahrein, Jordania, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Argelia, Oman, the dangerous revolts are being controlled by a combination of killings and vague reform promises. In Syria, the same governement recipe is playing in our favor, this time offering us the opportunity to repeat the Lybian gambit if we want/dare. Syrian regime is a harder nut than Libya, but the prize would also be even bigger (think Israel, think Iran, thin Lebanon).
Prof Cole, with due respect, please do not compare the Lincoln Brigade intervention in the Spanish Civil War with the current NATO intervention in Libya civil war. I am Spanish and feel the utmost respect and gratitude for the american volunteers that fought and died in my land side by side with my grandfather, and I feel an insult to their memory the slightest comparison with NATO imperial machine.
International Brigades were composed by volunteers from all around the world that risked their own lives to reach Spain by any means to join the revolutionary side. Teachers, factory workers, farmers, students who joined their spanish brothers in the armed struggle against fascism and capitalism.
Nothing in common with a proffesional bomber-pilot who today bomb a Libyan tank, tomorrow blow up to pieces an Afghan family and the next month can be gunning down Bahrain rebels if they came close to overthrown the monarchy. NATO armies (including Spanish army of course) are mercenary armies that respond to mercenary interests.
While I am totally oppossed to the NATO attacks on Libya, I would appreciate an influx of egyptians or tunisian rebels joining the Libyan rebels if they actually share common goals. Indeed, I feel weird the current lack of this kind of solidarity between neighbouring peoples. This is another factor that make me wonder about the true nature of the Libyan rebels. If their uprising where similar to the egyptian and tunisian ones, I would expect their neighbours to be staging daily rallies of support and crossing the borders to join the rebel ranks.
Nightly manhunts in Benghazi to aprehend thousands of Qadaffi supporters and 'enemies of the revolution'. Among them hundreds of sub-saharn inmigrants being rounded up and accused of being mercenaries.
Since this war has a strong component of tribalism, I wonder what is going to happen if these eastern rebels manage to take advantage of NATO support and conquer some southern or western cities where most population is loyal to Qadaffi or belongs to tribes fierly opposed to the Eastern ones. A scenario of rebel massacres does not seem very unlikely.
What if the rebels have not so much popular support as we have been said? What if they have the support of some tribes and not others? Is this a mere tribe or regionalist war?
What if the LatinAmerica rebel guerrillas in the 70s and 80s had tanks, anti-aircraft missiles, plenty of ammunition, even some planes, and the armed support of European and US air forces wipping out enemy troops? Well, I'll say you: they had won. They had nothing of that, and the US were supporting their cruel enemies. Even in those unfavorable conditions they nearly won in Guatemala and Salvador, and they even won in Nicaragua. Then, these Libyan rebels have even armor and modern weapons, they have the military support of Western powers and confront a weak army without airforce, and they are not capable to advance?? Really? Maybe Qadaffi is not as isolated and they are not as supported by the Libyan people as media tells us. Maybe.
What most amazes me is that you americans still perform racial statistics and have racial boxes to tick in nearly every paper form.
Black OR African-American?! Are there any difference?
Sorry to disagree in several points:
1. Foreign troops are on the ground right now against gov't troops. Special forces from several NATO countries are helping the rebels. In a more open way, several NATO armies are also sending military advisers to help the rebels. And new arms, finances and equipment are suddenly appearing in rebel hands by the day.
2. Drones are not called in to 'prevent attacks on civilians'. They are used to mope the way for the rebels to advance against defensive gov't forces. The vice-chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff acknowledges that: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/20114227457163162.html
The drones will be used to attack gov't troops traveling in civilian vehicles and 'to be able to get better visibility on targets that have started to dig themselves into defensive positions'. In my view, attacking defensive positions is not a way to prevent attacks on civilians. By definition, defending is the opposite of attacking. One more action that puts us far away from the original UN resolution.
Btw. Libyan gov't has asked NATO to put a date for a ceasefire (what UN resolution call for). Why can't we (NATO) say something like 'by April 25th all military operations of both sides must stop and upon verification of this ceasefire we will inmediately stop bombing' ??? Otherwise it seems that we are just seeking regime-change by supporting one side in a civil war.
Mr Tharouna. If tribalism is not important in Libya, how is that Qadaffi enjoys wide support in southern Libya and in many areas of the centre and western Libya? Rebel support is strong in areas around Benghazi and the berber mountains, but it is lacking in areas like Sirte or Sabha where most civilian population supports Qadaffi and is feraful of the rebels.
Yeah, better to quote a religious prophet.
Latinamerican revolutionary movements had true popular support and they would have liberated all countries between Mexico and Argentina in a couple of months if they had just enjoyed a fraction of the military support enjoyed by these heroic libyan "revolutionaries". The most powerful armies on earth are providing them with air superiority, close air support, logistical bombing, special forces and military experts, but alas they don't even manage to take a tiny town. If they had wide popular support they will be unstoppable by now with all that NATO warmachine working for them.
Come on!
The rebel occupation of Ajdabiya some weeks ago was only possible thanks to several days of NATO bombing on defensive governement troops. After Ajdabiya fall, the rebels continued their advance toward Sirte, occupying towns loyal to Qadafi like Ras Lanuf and Bin Jawad, thanks to heavy NATO bombing of governement troops. Near Sirte, rebels where pushed back by army and civilians loyals to Qadaffi when the Western bombings were reduced due to bad weather. This is taking sides in a civil war.
You support the rebels, ok, but I think you shouldn't hide the evidence: we are taking sides in a civil war. We are bombing static troops, defensive positions, supply convoys, we are giving close air support to rebel troops, trining them, come on. We are sided with the rebels who fight under the monarchy flag and are headed by two men: former Ministry of Interior who for yeras leaded Qaddafi repressive police until he changed sides five weeks ago, and a CIA operative flown from Virginia to Benghazi.
''there is certainly no question that NATO’s intervention in Libya is authorized by UN Security Council resolution 1973''
Really? UN resolution calls for a "ban on flights" and to "protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack". Just that.
Thus, according to the UN you can shot down flying aircraft and you can attack troops directly attacking populated areas, i.e., Governement troops attacking Misrata or Rebel troops attacking Brega, but I do not think that the attacks against defending governement units are in accordance with UN resolution, or the attacks against governement convoys moving between governement-held cities, or giving air cover to rebel troops "attacking populated areas" defended by governement troops and pro-governement civilians.
This is a civil war with civilian support for both sides. One side is headed by an excentric dictator. The other one is headed by a former CIA operative living in Virginia and a guy who 5 weeks ago was the head of Qaddafi's repressive system (Interior Ministry). What a 'revolution'!
I think it is crazy to call for a trial against somebody for burning a book. More so a book about esoteric things, be it the Bible, the Koran or the Agatean holy book of gnomes. We can not surrender reason to superstition.
That said, I think the afghan riots are motivated by occupation, constant humiliations by foreign invaders, kill-teams, constant carnages by US and NATO bombs and so on. These are not the first nor will be the last riots in Afghanistan against foreign occupation. I don't know if the koran burning in Florida has been an extra factor this time, but in any case it is the less important aspect of the whole affair, and the one we should be less concerned with. It is not criminal to burn a book, but it is criminal to militarily occupy other people's land and to kill and humilliate local residents.
A humanitarian policing operation to save embattled residents?
Well, it seems that the residents are being killed in dozens by the humanitarian police:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/31/tripoli-air-strikes-killed-civilians
Vatican envoy to Libya reports on the carnage caused by our brave pilots bombing Tripoli.
Nothing new: we are killing the people that we said we are protecting.
You also need to forget that Libya is in Africa and the Africa Union is strongly opposed to this NATO attack on Libya.
Two main points I do not understand in this plot:
Why the counterattack against rebel positions in the east contravene the UN resolution while the rebel attacks do not? Armed rebels, militiamen, guerrillas, have never been considered civilians. In all wars they have always been fighters and proud to be. So stop claiming that bombing a side in a battleground is aimed at protecting 'civilians'.
All media agrees that Sirte population supports the governement and do not welcome a rebel attack. So, how on earth can we justify supporting the rebel advance through air bombing or arm providing? We are in fact helping an armed force to threaten an hostile civilian population! More so, yesterday there were several reports on local residents of Bin Jawad and Nawfaliyah fighting against the rebels in support of Qaddafi army. Rebels in the frontline recognized this civilian opposition.
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=425182&version=1&template_id=37&parent_id=17
http://www.publico.es/internacional/368714/el-ejercito-de-gadafi-lanza-otro-contraataque
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-fighting-20110329,0,1882268.story
I say again, what if the civilian support enjoyed by the rebels is not so widespread as Obama and Sarkozy claim? What if we are not protecting 'civilians' but just helping an armed side in conflict to overpower the other side, and by doing so we are supporting the repression of thousands of civilians opposed to Eastern Rebels?
From the other side of the atlantic it seems to me that the main difference between Republicans and Democrats presidents is that the later lies better and more elegantly. It's the same in the US than in Spain I think. A governement that calls himself 'left' and it is actually doing the dirty work for the 'right': cuts on pensions, cuts on working rights, cuts on education and health, and wars on third world countries.
The war on Libya has NATO support?: Of course.
Has it UN support?: I think not. The UN-resolution speaks about no-fly zone and "stopping threats to populated centres". The no-fly zone was implemented long ago and Qaddafi troops are not threatening cities in Tripoli, nor in Sirt, nor in Ajdabiya or any other eastern city, so what is the point bombing DEFENSIVE pro-governement positions? what is the point helping rebels to "threaten population centres". Regime change not suppported by UN resolution.
Has it Arab League support?: Not. They supported the no-fly zone but not this interfering in a civil war. The Secretary General of the Arab League said it clearly: this is not what they voted for.
African Union: someone has asked them? Yes, and they said NO, so they are totally ignored now. You know, Libya is an African country and I think the opinion of the major African organization should matter. We support them when they do the dirty work occupying Somalia but now we despise them.
News: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2011/03/201132994454514581.html Today, the rebel advance has been halted and reversed. They have lost Bin Jawad in a governement counter-attack. Are we going to piss again on the UN-resolution to make a new round of soldier-killing from the air in order to flatten the terrain ahead of the rebels? Btw, Yugoslavians and Romanians did not need a foreign power to destroy their armies in order to overturn their own governements (the yugoslavian army remained fairly intact after the NATO campaign to 'liberate' Kosovo).
The Lybian is the first liberation movement that need constant pet-care by the greatest military powers on Earth in order to advance against an isolated, tribal-fractured governement whose army is perhaps the weakest in the Arab world.
Again, this make me wonder about the true popular support enjoyed by the rebels outside Benghazi.
The erasing of Qadaffi air force and the wipping out of advancing tank columns was not enough for the rebels to gain ground. Thus, NATO had to forget UN resolution and destroy defensive Qadaffi positions, infantry, artillery, armor. With soldiers and tanks destroyed from the air the rebels could easily use their own tanks and soldiers to take the vacant terrain. I wonder if the UN resolution said something about helping rebels to attack cities. The NATO move seems to be fully against the UN resolution but who cares.
Overall, Western powers are winning again in the Middle East. In January and February it seemed that the whole region was set to sail free. However, right now we see how the Egyptian and Tunisian revolutions have stalled and Israel and USA have been able to minimize damages there. In Lybia we are working for regime change with awesome impunity, kicking out an unpredictable regime to put in its place a pro-western alliance of eastern tribes. In Bahrein, Jordania, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Argelia, Oman, the dangerous revolts are being controlled by a combination of killings and vague reform promises. In Syria, the same governement recipe is playing in our favor, this time offering us the opportunity to repeat the Lybian gambit if we want/dare. Syrian regime is a harder nut than Libya, but the prize would also be even bigger (think Israel, think Iran, thin Lebanon).
Prof Cole, with due respect, please do not compare the Lincoln Brigade intervention in the Spanish Civil War with the current NATO intervention in Libya civil war. I am Spanish and feel the utmost respect and gratitude for the american volunteers that fought and died in my land side by side with my grandfather, and I feel an insult to their memory the slightest comparison with NATO imperial machine.
International Brigades were composed by volunteers from all around the world that risked their own lives to reach Spain by any means to join the revolutionary side. Teachers, factory workers, farmers, students who joined their spanish brothers in the armed struggle against fascism and capitalism.
Nothing in common with a proffesional bomber-pilot who today bomb a Libyan tank, tomorrow blow up to pieces an Afghan family and the next month can be gunning down Bahrain rebels if they came close to overthrown the monarchy. NATO armies (including Spanish army of course) are mercenary armies that respond to mercenary interests.
While I am totally oppossed to the NATO attacks on Libya, I would appreciate an influx of egyptians or tunisian rebels joining the Libyan rebels if they actually share common goals. Indeed, I feel weird the current lack of this kind of solidarity between neighbouring peoples. This is another factor that make me wonder about the true nature of the Libyan rebels. If their uprising where similar to the egyptian and tunisian ones, I would expect their neighbours to be staging daily rallies of support and crossing the borders to join the rebel ranks.
Scaring news about the 'Liberation Movement':
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-prisoners-20110324,0,5389027,full.story
Nightly manhunts in Benghazi to aprehend thousands of Qadaffi supporters and 'enemies of the revolution'. Among them hundreds of sub-saharn inmigrants being rounded up and accused of being mercenaries.
Since this war has a strong component of tribalism, I wonder what is going to happen if these eastern rebels manage to take advantage of NATO support and conquer some southern or western cities where most population is loyal to Qadaffi or belongs to tribes fierly opposed to the Eastern ones. A scenario of rebel massacres does not seem very unlikely.
As times goes by new doubts arise.
What if the rebels have not so much popular support as we have been said? What if they have the support of some tribes and not others? Is this a mere tribe or regionalist war?
What if the LatinAmerica rebel guerrillas in the 70s and 80s had tanks, anti-aircraft missiles, plenty of ammunition, even some planes, and the armed support of European and US air forces wipping out enemy troops? Well, I'll say you: they had won. They had nothing of that, and the US were supporting their cruel enemies. Even in those unfavorable conditions they nearly won in Guatemala and Salvador, and they even won in Nicaragua. Then, these Libyan rebels have even armor and modern weapons, they have the military support of Western powers and confront a weak army without airforce, and they are not capable to advance?? Really? Maybe Qadaffi is not as isolated and they are not as supported by the Libyan people as media tells us. Maybe.